and employee experience are navigating organizations through their own journey

to be customer-led and the actions and behaviors employees and businesses

exhibit to get there. And now, your host, Maru Brown.

Boy, do we have a treat for you. Today we have Brian Solless, one of the

leading authorities on how to navigate technologydriven disruptive change so that it doesn’t overwhelm you or derail

you, but instead it delivers exceptional value for your business. Now, Brian has

so many accolades, I could take up half the program just listing them, but we won’t do that. So, I’ll just give you a

few. He’s a nine times best-selling author, including his latest book, Mind Shift: Transform Leadership, Drive

Innovation, and Reshape the Future. We’re going to talk about that some today. He’s also an international

keynote speaker and he’s a renowned expert on the future of technology and business trends with more than 60

research papers published in leading publications like Forbes and CIO magazine and Fast Company. Welcome to

the program, Brian. Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thank you for that uh generous introduction.

Well, we’re really glad to have you and excited about uh what we’re going to

talk about. And you know, to write a book, I mean, I’ve written a couple myself, so I know you got to have fire

in your belly to write a book, especially when you you’re holding down a full-time job, you know, at the same

time. And you’ve done it nine times, right? So, tell me, what was the fire in your belly that got you to write Mind

Shift? That’s going to be a whole program right there, but I’ll do my best to keep it uh to keep it short. Yeah. I

love the way you described it, fire in your belly, because that one was

certainly hot. Uh and it was burning for a long time. I just had watched massive

disruptive waves crash over and over and over again. Uh and there are specific

events that that really drove this, but let’s just say more recently with the

pandemic, uh the climate change, uh artificial intelligence, just the incredible

disconnect that’s happening between people and technology and disinformation. I

mean, we’ve got no shortage of disruptions, right? Yeah. Just all of these things. And and I think the one pattern that they all

have is that we generally whether as a business or as a society or as

governments, we don’t see them as disruptions. We see them as let’s try to understand them and let’s put them into

the box of business as usual. Uh and I think artificial intelligence of all of

them is the one where we could start by putting it in the box of of uh business as usual like i.e. automation, chat

bots, etc. But it is going to require absolute transformation because it

allows us to do something that other disruptions haven’t given us. And that is the ability to do what we didn’t do

yesterday. Whereas we tend to look at every disruptive wave as how can we use

this to do what we did or navigate what we did yesterday better tomorrow. I I guess the the the uh the pandemic was

one of those disruptions that made us realize that we had to fundamentally shift how we think about some things

because you couldn’t just do things uh the the same way that that you have done before, right? But hey, listen. Uh what

are some of the give me one or two of the key takeaways you want for people to to to take from mind shift? We’ll jump

in right there and then we’ll start, you know, digging deeper into some of these things. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let’s put it

into the context of your audience. To be customerled, a mind shift is to see something, to

recognize something that you couldn’t see before that you give yourself the

space to explore what you didn’t see before to then inspire new ideas, new

opportunities, and new ways forward. I think that’s the mind shift in its most simplistic sense. But what it’s really

calling for is a new generation of leaders. I think we’re often waiting for someone to tell us what to do. We’re

often waiting for that leader to guide us, kind of give us the insights around like for example, what do we need to know about AI so we know we can move

forward together. But I actually believe that this is a moment that we are that leader. We need to become that leader.

We need to convince ourselves that if we’re waiting for someone to tell us what to do, we might be on the wrong side of innovation. Uh and so one of the

biggest takeaways for the book or is to recognize that as you’re reading it, you

are that leader even if it’s not a role or a title or a hierarchy that you have

a voice in how to shape the future. So for example, if you think about the

pandemic, we saw overnight transformations uh for customer centric

technologies like e-commerce or curbside pickup for example. uh suddenly

everything needed to be digital and mobile so that the customer could get in contact with your business. Uh the same

thing happened for employees. They had to be able to work from home. And so that sudden shift shouldn’t have taken a

pandemic to accelerate that digital accessibility and that digital engagement because it had been happening

for a long time. Same is true for artificial intelligence. The only wave

of AI that’s new to us is generative AI. uh and because it was consumerfacing

technology this time it blew up in terms of adoption and disruption. So when when

I think about being customer-led the mind shift for me is that customer should always be front and center. How

is that customer different than me? How is their day-to-day life or their

day-to-day work different in the day in the life of to the my day in the life

of? So, for example, as someone who’s worked in CX, uh someone who’s worked in marketing, someone who’s worked in

business transformation, it’s always an inside out job, meaning

I’ve got my processes, I’ve got my systems, I’ve got my budgets and resources and all of the constraints that come with it. We have a way of

working and when something new comes along, we try to bring it into this system and bolt it on, plug it in, uh

and create new touch points, for example. But it’s not it’s not anything that it’s truly customer-led or

customer- centered. So if I step back and I look at my mind shift and I think

all right well what am I not seeing? Well for example we know the customer 70% to 80% of all decisions start right

here and they don’t always end there because something’s broken in the

process. Uh and that is an opportunity for us to say well how do they want to make a decision? How do they how are

they influenced? What’s intuitive to them? Uh how does their brain work? For example, if you if you look at a Tik Tok

user and you put them on a regular website with with forms and chat bots, that’s that’s just a different brain. So

I think about it I think about I know it’s a long answer, but I’ll I’ll come to the end here. I think about it this

way. To be customer led is to be empathetic. And to be empathetic is to see the world as your customer sees it

and let it inspire you. And then go back to your journey. go back to your your processes, your systems to see what’s

not in alignment with them. Well, you know, it it it’s kind of interesting because I wrote a book of my

own called uh a blueprint for customer obsession where I laid out these principles of customer obsession. And

one of them is to give customers what they want before they know they need it,

right? You think about some things that that you know have done that. I mean, like, uh, who ever thought that you’d be

using your watch a as part of your your navigation in your car, right? Because

it’s it’s kind of pinging you when it’s time for you to make a turn or or maybe your watch using, you know, helping you

with uh health things like, you know, your heart rate and all of those kinds of things. That was giving customers

something that that they wanted before they knew they even needed. And I and and I’m thinking like the principles

that you have in mind shift, how can that help companies like deliver on that

that you know tenant of of customer obsession? How how can it help people unlock the ability to give customers

what they want before they know they need it? It’s a philosophy that is is both

wonderful but also difficult. And what makes it difficult is is the

lack of empathy. And it’s not that people don’t care. It’s just that we’re we’re human beings and

we have biases. And those biases are really how we see the world versus how someone else sees the world. Uh as an

executive, I have I have my my constraints. I have my politics. I have things I have to try to navigate. And I

try to do my best within that paradigm to deliver for the customer. But if I’m

not taking the time to understand life from the customer’s perspective,

then I’m never I’m never going to be able to see the challenges they have, the struggles that they have, and to

introduce new opportunities for them to better experience something or to better

do something in a way that becomes refreshing.

That’s something that they they can’t live without. So if you think about how Steve Jobs approached it, we could go

back to the Xerox days where he discovered the mouse or he discovered

graphical user interface. He didn’t invent them. He just saw that it could make the lives

easier for someone who was using a computer for the first time. Those were not intuitive. They were DOSsbased, very

difficult. and he recognized that if I could if I could unlock the power of

these machines so that the everyday person could embrace them, then that would be magical. Uh, and that same way

with Disney with his cartoons and the and Snow White, the first uh animated motion picture. Nobody was waiting

around for an hour and a half cartoon until he gave it to them. But he studied he studied how people can be engaged uh

and and and how and and and what they might be lacking in their day-to-day life. So he stepped out of his world and

into theirs. That’s the mind shift. The first few chapters are really about how do you get out of your own mind so that

you can embrace a beginner’s mind so that you can see things as if it was a new because when you can see things like

with childlike wonder, everything becomes possible. Maybe even too much. Uh so but that that’s the opportunity

and one of the analogies I love to use uh it’s an old show. I don’t know if you ever used to watch it, Undercover Boss.

Yeah. Yeah. That is that is for me the manifestation of empathy because what ends up

happening this the stories are always the same. somebody at the top

goes into disguise, whether it’s working uh in the back of the store room or it’s

working on the front line with other with other employees or it’s actually being the customer. Then they actually

see and feel what it’s like to be someone else. And then they can’t unsee

it. They can’t unfeill it. And everything changes by the end of the episode. There’s crying, there’s

laughter, there’s applause because now suddenly we were one. We were together. And that that’s the

power of that mind shift. Well, you know, it’s interesting because I I’ll give you one that doesn’t even require

you to to be undercover, right? So, uh Jeff Bezos was uh taking calls in in a

contact center. a call came in and you know the the customer’s information

popped up on the screen and and the the rep sitting next to him says, “Well, they’re going to want to return that.”

And sure enough, that’s what the customer wanted. And he he was like, “Well, you know, how’d you know that?”

And she says, “Well, you know, I see that all the time. They they always want to return that, right?” And uh it was

like okay something’s wrong with that picture because you should have a way to communicate that so we can stop that

from happening right and that gave rise to you know uh something called the

andon cord at Amazon you know something that I had I got the privilege of

running for a while but that that was an innovation that made it possible for us to take down things that were were

causing issues uh for for customers so that we could fix them systemically right and and I think that kind of lines

up with with with what you’re describing. But so what do you think of this notion then that if people work

backwards from the customer or they work backwards from the employee, they would

identify some of the most innovative and some of the most disruptive disruptive opportunities to utilize AI in their

environments. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So if you think about the box of business as usual

uh with AI, what we’re seeing right now out of uh out of the box is automation. Let’s take out costs. Let’s increase

efficiencies and scale. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s sound business thinking. So I don’t want to I don’t

want to tell anyone that they’re not doing the right thing. You have to do that. But now

that becomes the new AI powered status quo, right? Everybody’s doing that. So what are you going to do differently?

And if we take that customer centric approach, how does the customer experience this? Well, let’s let’s go

back to the good old days of contact centers, decision trees, and automated

systems and IVRs. No customer to this day wakes up and says, “Boy, I cannot wait to call a contact center and talk

to a machine where I have to scream representative 30,000 times until I can talk to a human being.” No customer ever

says that. It sucks. It’s a horrible experience. But businesses do it because it saves costs. It’s efficient. It still

gets them hopefully to the outcome that they need. But all of these things, including AI powered automation, comes

at the cost of the customer’s experience. And I always I always put

that apostrophe s. It’s the customer’s experience, not customer experience, it’s theirs.

And so that’s a that’s a mind shift for me to constantly remind myself that I am not the customer. So if you take Tik Tok

for example, say we have someone who is actively looking using Tik Tok,

constantly scrolling. One of the things that happens to their brain is that it moves so much faster than the normal

brain uh for better or worse. So they listen to podcasts, they watch videos at 1.2

1.5x speed because that’s just the way that their brain’s working. They’re consuming much more information. And now

you put that brain into your customer journey and you are going to find parts

where they are just going to break down or get frustrated or feel horrible. Um,

and so I say that because what you’re looking to do is to deliver a better

experience. That word itself is something I think we take for granted in in the world of customer service,

customer experience, customer marketing. Experience is actually an emotion. It’s

not a series of transactions. It’s not technology. It’s just an emotional reaction to at any given moment. And

there are only two experiences that people will remember. Experiences that are amazing and experiences that suck.

And and you got to ask yourself, what are you designing for? Uh because most of the time we’re just we’re designing

for the forgettable or worse, the ones that are awful. And that for me is that

mind shift. How can I use AI? How can I use technology to deliver a more

meaningful, relevant experience that people will remember in

some way, shape or form. And that I learned all of that uh by studying

Disney Imagineers. Yeah. Yeah. that that that actually is one of the things that uh I spent some

time on uh in blueprint for customer obsession. I delved into how Walt Disney

pioneered the Disney method with if it can be dreamt, it can be built and how

he allowed himself to pursue ideas that others would have found to be fantastical or even preposterous. And he

kicked the tires on those things and it led to some amazing stuff. So tell me

about what you’ve learned from the Disney Imagineers and how folks can can use that to to have a mind shift about

how they tackle some of these things like AI. Oh wow. Well, first of all, I love that

message. To this day, I still have two mentors as part of my AI. Uh, one is

Steve Jobs and the other one is Walt Disney. I use them as personas for inspiration as I think about um getting

that type of push that type of inspiration and motivations because it’s it’s very easy to fall into complacency.

It’s very easy to fall into the trap of well we can’t do that. Uh we’ll never make that happen. There’s no resources.

How are we going to get budget? This is the way it’s always been done. But what I learned from Imagineers is just that

one is that fantastical is the aspiration,

but more so uh one of the things that I learned Joe Roie was a was a big inspiration of mine as well. He’s a

former Imagineer was to remember the person on the other

side of the experience. Coming from Silicon Valley, it’s very easy to get caught up in the tech and and and and

the amazing capabilities that you couldn’t do before. And but it’s it’s also important to remember that someone

on the other side is going to use it, experience it, to feel it, to to

remember it. And those those lessons that I that I that I got from the Imagineering the Imagineers reminded me

that you have to design for those emotions. In fact, Joe Roie u he famously said that if you design an

experience it has to be extraordinary because if it’s not extraordinary it’s

forgettable and that was that was powerful uh to me and so what I

translated that into is in the study of psychology and the study of experience

itself which is the word means how you feel in a particular moment how I’m

experiencing this right now is is how I’m feeling about it. And how I’m feeling about it is how I’m going to

remember it or how I’m not going to remember it. And there the there are two experiences that people remember,

experiences that are wonderful and experiences that suck. And so being here in Southern California, I have a Disney

pass and I go to Disney of one because my my my daughters love it, but two

because I I want to I want to touch that magic. I want to remind myself of what that experience is like. And so I know this is a long answer to your question,

but the Imagineers who designed the Disney experiences at the park go

through painstaking detail around the the the trees, the paint to hide things

to make you feel like you’re immersed in a completely different world where outside of that park is Anaheim, for

example. You don’t see it, you don’t hear it, you don’t feel it. But even the concrete and the things that they put in

the concrete, the trash cans, everything goes to this this incredible amount of detail. So that the experience you feel

and the experience you remember is by design. And so when we talk about

customer experience or CX, we forget that that X, that word experience is

about how people feel on the other side of a touch point. How people feel along the way of a journey, how people feel

after they become a customer. So, for example, we take experience out of the equation. We automate, we put chat bots

in place. We we put automation systems in place so that you’re never talking to

a human being or at least getting a human-like experience. Why? Because it’s

expensive to serve a customer. So, therefore, uh we have to look for ways to take costs out at the expense of your

experience, which is ironic. So I think about Peter Ducker who who famously said

that the purpose of a business is to create and keep a customer. It is more expensive to lose a customer and have to

get another customer than it is to keep that customer and to keep that customer happy. And I’d love to see CX

professionals earn a seat at the seauite table to remind leaders that when you

invest in experience, you get it back in ways that go beyond NPS, in ways that go

beyond advocacy. You get growth. And if you can cultivate that relationship, you

have a you don’t just have a customer for life. you have a customer who is

spending more time and more of their resources with you. And that is another

thing that I’ve learned from Disney, especially going to the parks cuz it’s getting more and more expensive. But but

I I I love it and they love it and the memories we have together are appreciative of those experiences that

are designed and the memories that they create. You know, the interesting thing is that they call it the most magical place on

earth. You know, some people would say you can’t sustain that level of

excitement over and over and over and over and somehow they seem to do it,

right? And other businesses seem to do it. I mean, like, you know, Chick-fil-A has this notion of what they call the

second mile, right? and and so their folks are basically

um you know trained that you don’t just deliver what the customer asks for, you

give something over and above. What is that thing that you give as your second

mile thing and obviously Chick-fil-A has a religious bent and and they take that

right out of a place where Jesus said, “Hey, if somebody tells you to go with you one mile, go with them too.” and and

and so they actually are basing it on that and telling their folks, hey, listen, don’t just do what the person asked you

to do. Do something extra. And that of course creates that specialness in the

experience for you, right? I open the door for you and I put an umbrella over your head to take you out to the car so

you don’t have to walk in the rain, you know? I come over and fill your cup or something like that. So, and it’s in the

same spirit of what the Imagineers do and what you just described, right?

Can I just build on that real quick cuz you reminded me of something. Um, it’s also it’s not just the Imagineers, it’s

the cast members at the park who find special ways to make you feel like you

that you matter. Uh, I used to actually do work with Chick-fil-A and the experience team and I remember I had an

observation role just kind of sitting in the restaurant and watching watching a manager and the manager’s team do

exactly what you what you just described, the second mile. It was magical to watch it. There’s the the

food is one one thing, but people come back for that experience.

They want to feel like they felt that day again. Uh and that’s and that’s what you want. Uh and

the thing about that is as a leader you have to do two things. One, I get that you have a P&L, but if you can drive

growth by delivering better experiences, Allah Disney or Chick-fil-A, we know

from a business standpoint, it works. You just have to want to do that. And

then also, you have to hire the people who want to do that. And you have you have to measure them for doing that and

you have to reward them for doing that because if if you do not it is very easy

to get caught up in the transaction of the business and that’s where most

businesses fall down. Most customer journeys are incredibly transactional. They’re connected. Well, they’re not a

connected, but they are a string of touch points all with different

measures, all run from different groups. And therefore, that that second mile can

never be integrated across the whole experience unless you want it to. And

that that is where I think the controldelete moment needs to happen. What kind of experience do you want to

deliver? Do you value your customer? And do you believe that if you invest in your customers experience and that

relationship that you will make that back multiffold versus it being a cost

setter? How do you help leaders hone or or develop their skills around um you

know this this ability to to kind of go after go after these things. But I think

in some businesses the whole notion of of bringing forward even some of these

types of ideas gets shut down very fast. I mean I imagine you know like in

another business when somebody came up with the whole idea of cashierless checkout which you know Amazon kind of

like brought to the four somebody might have been shut down right out of the gate and like what are you talking about

cashierless checkout? But in a company like Amazon and me having been on the inside, I understand exactly how that

does not get shut down and how it rises to the top. How can you help leaders to develop this and you know do you do you

deal with that a bit in mind shift? Well, thank you for asking and uh the

mind shift is really about the journey of opening your mind,

changing your mind. Mhm. but more importantly to allow

yourself to receive the types of signals you were not able to receive before. So, for example, if I

was sitting in a Chick-fil-A and I was watching the manager and the manager’s team walk around the restaurant and do

something very nice for someone who’s sitting there, like offer to refill their cup or to put a little special

thing down on the table as a as a reward of a reward of recognition, for example.

Those are things that I might not have seen if I weren’t ready to see them. I might have just seen a busy restaurant.

I might have just seen people happily enjoying their lunch or their dinner. Um, but when when you have a a more open

mind and you’re ready to receive like the gifts that you see all around you, those are the things that inspire you to

want to do things differently, to want to to add your touch, your flavor to

that opportunity that you didn’t see before. And then you start seeing trends differently and how you might react to

those trends. And so that’s the whole idea of of what it means to to to go

through that mind shift journey. Now the way that I have to help executives sort

of have their own mind shift is we have to start from a place of of awareness.

And not to get too philosophical here but most of us are not self-aware. There’s a saying uh Anniian I believe is

who said this uh we don’t see the world as it is. We see the world as we are. And so when we see the world as we are,

we tend to miss all of those special things because we’re busy achieving the goals and the pressures and running from

meeting to meeting and all of the things that that we do that comprise our day in order for us to deliver the type of

success that we’re we’re being measured for. So, I got to take that I got to

take that person out of that mix and I have to inspire them in a way that they didn’t know they could be inspired. So,

let’s talk about that that that cashierless checkout experience. So, for

example, with one with one of the retailers that pioneered that, not Amazon, I worked with executives

uh to shop in their own stores. They hadn’t done that actually in a long

time. And I gave them homework. Different types of personas would need

different types of things. And they all took on that type of persona to shop for

those things, to ask for help, to or try to ask for help uh and then to check out

and then to come back and talk about what that experience was like. And the first thing that was really interesting

to me was that they just didn’t want to do it and hadn’t done it in a long time.

And then afterwards, it’s like any team building exercise, I suppose. It’s like, ah, maybe you were you were trepidacious

of actually doing it. And then afterwards, it’s like, oh my gosh, that was amazing. It brought us closer together. Uh, and so once they feel what

that experience is like, you can’t unfeill it. You can’t unsee it. And so that led to innovations in in selfch

checkout. That led to innovations in experience. That led to innovations in in having someone there to help you when

you need it and how they approach you. Like maybe a cast member might approach you at Disney or how someone might

approach you in Chick-fil-A. So these are things that they almost have to experience for themselves. And then

that’s that’s one part of it. The other part is you still have to speak the language of the business. So it’s one thing to be an advocate for the customer

or the voice of the customer. The other thing is to tie everything that you’re saying into the language of the business

so that not only are you helping the customer get a better experience, but you’re demonstrating how doing so

impacts the business positively. So that there I I I hate to say this, but that so that there is actual ROI that all of

all of the leaders can then understand that we’re making this investment for something beyond just goosebumps.

Cool. One of the things we got to do be before we we finish this off, we got to

talk about the AI aspects of this and and you you you’ve hit on that a little bit, but I I’m wondering what do you see

as you know some of the best opportunities for AI to to really help disrupt the

status quo in the customer and the employee experience. And you know, like we’re we’re we’re thinking about mind

shifts and I just feel like we can plant the seed for people so that they can have some ideas about how to do that.

We’re obviously not going to exhaust that, but any thoughts on that subject? Oh, you boy, where do I start? I mean,

we’re we’re using AI in the way that we’ve used every technology revolution.

It’s in particular CX. Think about the IVR. um when you used to call a human

being then that got outsourced then the IVR came in and I there’s a joke like

the test of anyone’s true character is how you how you react as you’re trying to get a human being when you call

customer service uh operator representative a uh and if you if you if

you Google something like uh like an image search uh for customer service a lot of the images are someone screaming

into the phone But it is sort of the the use of technology, not sort of, it is

the use of technology to get further away from people. And I and I want people to hear that. Like that’s exactly

what you’re doing. You’re getting further away from people. And if you do it without trying to put some Disney

magic in the moment, in that touch point, even with technology, then you’re also doing it at the cost of how they

feel and what they remember. Okay. Yeah, you know, let me let me just throw in something here because I I I

think of Intel inside. You know, you remember Intel inside the Pentium chip.

Yeah. And I I I I always think that, you know, with AI, there’s got to be almost

like a sticker that says human inside because you got to bring that working backwards, you know, from the customer

and the human element into how AI is deployed so that people can feel like,

oh, somebody thought through this for me before they deployed this, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Cuz nobody wakes up

and says, “Boy, I can’t wait to call customer service today or I can’t wait to talk to a chatbot today.” You even if

you talk to a chatbot and you and you train it to be more personal or you train it to ask questions to make

someone feel a little bit more at ease or that you you’re you you remind them of how important they are. there are

nuances that you can design into the script or into the or into the model that are not only human but make someone

feel special. So that’s that’s really all we have to do with AI. I mean it’s it’s inevitable we’re here we’re going

to use it to automate but we could also use it to augment. And so I’ll give you an example the IKEA story. I don’t know

if we talked about this behind the scenes, but the IKEA story, they in they

implemented a chatbot for customer service uh with the intention of like many contact centers to deflect. What

they did was the deflection was so effective. I think that they actually deflected 47% of inbounds, which was wow

pretty pretty big number. So they could have said, “Wow, that’s fantastic. We automated customer service. People seem

to like it.” And so maybe we don’t need these agents anymore and let’s take out costs, you know, because that’s what

customer service is. It’s a cost center. But instead, they looked at the other 53%. What are those what are those

customers not getting? What can’t we deliver? And they realized that actually

there’s a lot of opportunity for interior design. People had questions about the furniture or the design for

their office or for their home. And so what they did was they reskilled those agents to become interior designers and

they delivered a new type of service to the customer that actually generated revenue. So you save while still giving

a good experience and you deliver a new experience that that I think generated a billion euro in the in its first year.

That’s that’s an incredible story with the customer experience elevating as a

result too. Yep. That that is cool. And I’ve I’ve seen some things out there that that are

are pretty incredible that are um you know in the augmentation space like

where uh people are actually um where where where they’re they’re using

simulations to to train agents that that get agents,

you know, to the customers faster, more experienced, more ready. you know, I’ve

seen a number of different things that have been in the augmentation space that have uh that that have been uh super

helpful. Um and uh I know that there will be more disruptions. One that I

don’t think anybody ever thought about was uh you know using AI to actually um

score uh phones that were being uh traded in and so they could give more

accurate scoring on how to value those and and everything like that.

Well, look, uh, Brian, it’s been a pleasure talking to you about the mind shift and and all the different ways

that comes to life. You know, for for people who want to get in touch with you, maybe they want to continue this

conversation. What’s the best way for them to do that? Well, I’m pretty much at Brian Soloulless on all your favorite

platforms and then also Brians.com is is a good is a good hub or LinkedIn, I

suppose, is also is also good. I would love I’d love for you to read mind shift. Uh it is a book that basically

says we need a new type of leader especially in an era of AI so that we don’t just do we don’t just use

technology and every wave of of technology that’s to come that we that

we react to it in the ways that we’ve always reacted to it. instead that we start to get a little bit of foresight

and we start to put experience into the mix for employees and for customers and we start to be the type of leader that’s

looking forward and looking for ways to unlock new value and unlock new

experiences. So, I I just wanted to say Marmu, thank you for the opportunity to be part of this conversation and uh I

now have a another uh another Disney friend uh in the mix uh and to bring

that magic uh everywhere. Well, thank you. I certainly appreciate you uh making the time to join us on the

program. I’m sure that folks who have listened in have uh gotten some things

that they can take away, that they can go and that they can use right away. And thank you to all of you folks who have

have tuned in to to listen to this. Unfortunately, we’re going to have to wrap it up here for today. But please

come back again because we’re going to have another exciting program for you next time. But for now, that’s all and

uh look forward to you joining us again. Thank you, Brian. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to Be Customer with Maru Brown. We are grateful to our

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